Saturday, October 18, 2008

LT137: I'm Listening


Ben is a faithful reader of LOST TIDBITS and after laying out the Stopwatch Theory for the past two weeks, he writes a nice critique that brings up a lot of good points. I'm going to use his post as a basis for this blog.


"Boy, when I first heard you talking about this "theory" I hated it, simply because I hate time paradoxes. I still kinda hate it. But I do admit its fun to think about... a little. I think you've got a lot of holes in parts of your theory, but I do think you have a lot of good points."

Well thanks a lot...I think?


"Well, here it goes:So, they first built the Swan hatch time machine(TM) somewhere in 1984...makes sense. Every 108 minutes, the TM takes the island back to the same point in 1984.When the Swan hatch imploded, it allowed the island to continue on its timeline.

At first, I was willing to accept the increased island time rate too. However, if it did, then Penny and Widmore's chumps would have found the island (off-island time) without the aid of Charlie's shutting down the Looking Glass. I think that's what the TM was for in the first hide the island from the outside world."

I do agree that the Swan Hatch was there to control the electromagnetic (EM) capabilities. You are pointing out that the main function of the Swan Hatch was to power the invisibility shield. I suggested in my theory that it powered the time machine in the Orchid Hatch. Could it do both? It seems like quite the powerful energy supply. And consider that the Swan Hatch might not have just been an on/off switch, but a regulator. The power could be flowing to all stations.

So the question sort of become what is meant by "power". Let's give it the traditional meaning, but also consider the potential for non-traditional uses due to the electromagnetic properties. It is with this energy source that time and space can theoretically be manipulated.

In a schematic, the Swan is the energy plant and it powers the Orchid's time machine and the Looking Glass' invisibility/blocking machine and all the other hatches. The same way electromagnetic properties allow an island to remain hidden is the same general explanation how the Swan's electromagnetic properties allow an island to remain in 1984.


"I still think the crashed plane was staged..."

If I get your meaning, you are talking about Flight 815 flying from the present and into a bubble of 1984 time and how that would create a twin...or not. There does seem to be a lot of evidence suggesting the Sundra Trench plane is staged. The missing wedding ring on the pilot's finger that Frank shares with us is one example. Consider him a good guy and we have a bad guy, Tom, telling Michael he has proof that Widmore staged it. So, yeah, if both sides are telling us it was staged, then it was staged.

Meaning that the real Flight 815 hit the time bubble/force field and simply crashed. No twin plane. No cloned Flight 815 heading further west to make it to the gulf of India. I'll go with you that because for the most part it doesn't matter since everyone in real-time died minutes later anyway. Now if we saw two Jack's walking around on and off island, that would be cool.

In summary, I think my theory still works as long as the mass/matter exists in both 2004 and 1984.


"I don't agree with the John vanishing in a poof of logic if he killed his father...the man still died, and that would have affected John's existence. I know how much you wanted to use Hitchhiker's God-logic paradox, but...NO. That was a stupid idea then, and its a bad one now."

First, am I that transparent you picked up my admiration for Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect. Then you also know I enjoy one of the LOST numbers being 42.

Next, to your point. While I can't prove postive that the twin plane aspect it accurate and there does exist evidence to the contrary...with this point I'm not so willing to concede. Consider these points as proof positive:

* The producers have told us there would be no time paradox (sorry, I forget the official term for the concept you can't kill your grandfather in the past since you wouldn't exist to be able to travel back thingy) so in a sense they confirm John can't kill his father.

* John couldn't kill his father. I mean on the show, he couldn't do it. That may be due to his morals or some personal code of conduct, but the bottom line is he couldn't kill his father. That leaves the door open to the possible interpretation that he couldn't kill his father due to the producer's verbal clue.

* Michael couldn't kill himself. Without getting ecclesiastical here, SOMETHING controlled Michael's appointed time of death. But the relevant evidence is that time paradoxes wouldn't take place which futher strengthens the theory that John Locke couldn't kill Anthony Cooper with his own hands.

Now it is mind boggling to me that Sawyer can waltz over and strangle the guy, but not Locke. Perhaps the rule on the whiteboard at the LOST writer's offices simply require strict time paradox avoidance. The scene with Sawyer could be intended to share one of the rules because I believe every scene, like every thing, happens for a reason. :)


"Here's some theories of my own that could apply to yours.

*I think we need to apply Mrs. Hawking's law more.

The universe needed those particular people to end up on that island, in order to course-correct itself, which is to get rid of the power-hungry Ben somehow. What better than to have them all in one place (the plane) and push them back in time to 1984, during Desmond's accidental episode.Then the universe sends a parachute of food, sent in 1984, and being received when the survivors needed it. Faraday's rocket exp. is the universe telling Faraday not to expect things to arrive on the island when he thinks they should. Then the universe brings back the Doctor's body, to accelerate the survivors' actions. And then it allowed W's chumps to get on the island for the same reason.I think the universe is also responsible for people's sightings of ghosts. A necessity to get people off their asses. John and Hurley seem to need it the most lol.When they get off the island, they are re-sent to the future, to whenever their minds would think the world is continuing. In other words, their minds are on the off-island stopwatch--I think that's what you were trying to say early in this post.(PS:I also think that anything electronic/radioactive is also on the off-island stopwatch, hence Danielle's continued distress call, the looking glass's operation, and the Jack+Penelope's radio contact.)(PPS:Why would Ben tell his people that the Looking Glass wasn't operational?)"

The main gist I kept picking up was your term universe and identifying it as the controller of all things - getting people on the plane and stopping Ben, getting Keamy's men to stop Ben, etc. In essence we are saying an Intelligent Design was involved. It will be interesting to see if our "mythology" ends up being explain as 1's and 0's on a chalkboard or in a Matrix-like computer. We obviously have to wait to see who or what is in control of all things.

When you expand this to include ALL events it is a brain stroke waiting to happen. I mean "Fate" caused the bus to hit Juliet's husband? "Fate" made Sun turn around for impending flight? I can get the idea of Fate recruiting converts to assist pushing people in the direction "Fate" wanted them to go, but really? Some invisible hand? I sense instead the basic premise will come down Fate versus Science and mathematics will explain that the sun is a celestial body instead of guy in a flaming chariot. At least I'm cheering for that side! LOL!

You and I are on the same page in regard to the stopwatch examples you gave.


"Here's another idea... the icy wheel room was another TM, but built in ancient times, probably when that giant statue w/4toes was built. When Ben pushed the wheel, he brought the island back to the time when that TM was built, hence, causing the island to disappear.Get where I'm going? It didn't move locations, it went back in time. And it will never eventually make it past 1984, which is why it is unseen to everyone in the present.I think you're off with the overlapping time killing Alex theory. If anything, it was a course correction required for some end or other. I think it's a swing and a miss for Rule 7."

I'm right with you on the island not being visible due to time. Basically, you are right on the mark that the island didn't move locations it moved in time. We are in agreement with the premise that you can't go back prior to when a TM was built. Your suggestion that the Time Machine was built centuries early allows for a larger window of time jumping. If true, then it does disqualify the time overlapping for Alex. Plus the younger boy and girl are still alive and they definitely would have their time overlapped by now...well, now that I think about, since the Swan Hatch imploded we haven't ever seen the children, now have we? I believe they have been asked about a time or two, but they were never shown, were they? Hmmm...

Leaving Alex explained as course correction is fine with me. Don't you think Ben's line about changing the rules has a bit more meaning though? And, Something had to control the rules and change them.


"BTW, what Comic Con video are you talking about? I've never seen one with Daniel in it."

Oh, you are going to enjoy this one. Here is a link:
It clearly is Daniel's voice. Well, as clear as its going to get. HA!

Some suggestion the baby Candle asks to be removed from the room could be father, like son. Others imagine they see Charlotte in the video. But it strongly suggests that Daniel travels back in time - is somewhat of a controlled fashion and leave it to him to be the one to pull that off. He warns Marvin and seems as if he has to leave soon or at least some wormhole can't stay open longer. It could be Daniel back when he was really like 21 math whiz and not the beared version of 2004/1984/whatever time. Wow, this gets complicated.

Anyway, enjoy the video.


"One last thought...Jack, Hurley and the others saw the island disappear, they were still on the island clock. I think they were close enough to be on the clock, but not close enough to be taken back with it.Well, those are my thoughts, I hope you made it through all of them. I'd like some feedback too.If there's something more to your theory that you'd like to discuss, just reply to this comment or put it in your next post.

'Til next time,Ben aka "B""

Well, B, you brought up a lot of interesting points. I hope I gave you something to chew on in my responses. Might post a few extra blogs as other ideas come to my mind.


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Anonymous said...

Reply to your reply to my reply...

Terrific! An entire post dedicated to my reply! I'm pretty psyched about it all, ty. I'm also impressed with the feedback you gave me. Now I'll give you some fb on the fb I gave you...I'll try to keep it shorter this time.

PS. No such luck keeping it short lol.

Swan Hatch
I agree with you that the Swan Hatch may just be a regulator, but let's put our facts together: the Orchid is far deeper underground than the Swan Hatch. Why would it be so deep if not to get closer to the power source?
I could go along with the electromagnetic properties...I hate to get all anti-scientific with you, but don't forget what that healing guru said to Rose when she and Bernard went to Australia, about the different power sources. Whatever the power source is, it also has the ability to heal.

Locke's Father
Umm...I think you're confused, John isn't going back in time to kill his father before conception, so even if the world is in the past, John's father on the island already committed whatever actions he did in his life.
As for why John couldn't kill his father... well, I think there's just some psychological explanation, like why God doesn't kill Satan...emotional attachment, hope for future atonement, something like that.

Back at you
Who's in control? Well, let's look at our options...the Island, black smoke, Jacob, or Hurley (subconsciously).

Hey, there could still be a guy in a flaming chariot under a lot of hot stuff, while still pretending to obey the laws of physics! Oh, ya I'm on the side that says Science only works for Fate.

We saw those kids at the Hydra, when they asked Jack about Anna, post-bright light.
I hate being anti-plot, but I think that they killed Alex off because the actress (Tania Raymonde) is starting to do movies.
As for "Changing the rules" could be a million things. Maybe this is some kind of virtual chess game between Ben and Widmore, and Widmore just killed Ben's queen after an understanding. Maybe they agreed not to kill one another or touch each other's family in the beginning of their dispute.

Eh, I wouldn't give the vid much thought, I didn't the first time I saw it. I think it was just a promo for their gay DharmaI2 game.

There's just one Q I had that didn't get looked at: Why would Ben tell his people that the Looking Glass wasn't operational? To convince them that people weren't looking for them?

That's all for now,

ncjl said...

I think that it would be possible to dismiss the Dharma video if it just had Pierre in it. But since Daniel was in it, and there was the mention of the baby, I'm pretty sure it'll have some serious significance.
I really wish I could fully get into this discussion but I can't wrap my mind around time paradoxes and, frankly, the rest of this theory.. so I'll leave it to you two.
- izi

Anonymous said...

And you'll be all the better for it.

The thing is, we don't really know that it was Daniel, only that it sounds a bit like him.
So what if there was a baby mentioned...the only thing said about it was to shut it up. Whether we find out the identity of the baby can only be told with future episodes, so I wouldn't hold my breath.