Saturday, October 18, 2008
LT137: I'm Listening
MEET BEN
Ben is a faithful reader of LOST TIDBITS and after laying out the Stopwatch Theory for the past two weeks, he writes a nice critique that brings up a lot of good points. I'm going to use his post as a basis for this blog.
BE NICE
"Boy, when I first heard you talking about this "theory" I hated it, simply because I hate time paradoxes. I still kinda hate it. But I do admit its fun to think about... a little. I think you've got a lot of holes in parts of your theory, but I do think you have a lot of good points."
Well thanks a lot...I think?
THE SWAN HATCH
"Well, here it goes:So, they first built the Swan hatch time machine(TM) somewhere in 1984...makes sense. Every 108 minutes, the TM takes the island back to the same point in 1984.When the Swan hatch imploded, it allowed the island to continue on its timeline.
At first, I was willing to accept the increased island time rate too. However, if it did, then Penny and Widmore's chumps would have found the island (off-island time) without the aid of Charlie's shutting down the Looking Glass. I think that's what the TM was for in the first place...to hide the island from the outside world."
I do agree that the Swan Hatch was there to control the electromagnetic (EM) capabilities. You are pointing out that the main function of the Swan Hatch was to power the invisibility shield. I suggested in my theory that it powered the time machine in the Orchid Hatch. Could it do both? It seems like quite the powerful energy supply. And consider that the Swan Hatch might not have just been an on/off switch, but a regulator. The power could be flowing to all stations.
So the question sort of become what is meant by "power". Let's give it the traditional meaning, but also consider the potential for non-traditional uses due to the electromagnetic properties. It is with this energy source that time and space can theoretically be manipulated.
In a schematic, the Swan is the energy plant and it powers the Orchid's time machine and the Looking Glass' invisibility/blocking machine and all the other hatches. The same way electromagnetic properties allow an island to remain hidden is the same general explanation how the Swan's electromagnetic properties allow an island to remain in 1984.
WARPED BY TIME EVENTS
"I still think the crashed plane was staged..."
If I get your meaning, you are talking about Flight 815 flying from the present and into a bubble of 1984 time and how that would create a twin...or not. There does seem to be a lot of evidence suggesting the Sundra Trench plane is staged. The missing wedding ring on the pilot's finger that Frank shares with us is one example. Consider him a good guy and we have a bad guy, Tom, telling Michael he has proof that Widmore staged it. So, yeah, if both sides are telling us it was staged, then it was staged.
Meaning that the real Flight 815 hit the time bubble/force field and simply crashed. No twin plane. No cloned Flight 815 heading further west to make it to the gulf of India. I'll go with you that because for the most part it doesn't matter since everyone in real-time died minutes later anyway. Now if we saw two Jack's walking around on and off island, that would be cool.
In summary, I think my theory still works as long as the mass/matter exists in both 2004 and 1984.
LOCKE'S FATHER
"I don't agree with the John vanishing in a poof of logic if he killed his father...the man still died, and that would have affected John's existence. I know how much you wanted to use Hitchhiker's God-logic paradox, but...NO. That was a stupid idea then, and its a bad one now."
First, am I that transparent you picked up my admiration for Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect. Then you also know I enjoy one of the LOST numbers being 42.
Next, to your point. While I can't prove postive that the twin plane aspect it accurate and there does exist evidence to the contrary...with this point I'm not so willing to concede. Consider these points as proof positive:
* The producers have told us there would be no time paradox (sorry, I forget the official term for the concept you can't kill your grandfather in the past since you wouldn't exist to be able to travel back thingy) so in a sense they confirm John can't kill his father.
* John couldn't kill his father. I mean on the show, he couldn't do it. That may be due to his morals or some personal code of conduct, but the bottom line is he couldn't kill his father. That leaves the door open to the possible interpretation that he couldn't kill his father due to the producer's verbal clue.
* Michael couldn't kill himself. Without getting ecclesiastical here, SOMETHING controlled Michael's appointed time of death. But the relevant evidence is that time paradoxes wouldn't take place which futher strengthens the theory that John Locke couldn't kill Anthony Cooper with his own hands.
Now it is mind boggling to me that Sawyer can waltz over and strangle the guy, but not Locke. Perhaps the rule on the whiteboard at the LOST writer's offices simply require strict time paradox avoidance. The scene with Sawyer could be intended to share one of the rules because I believe every scene, like every thing, happens for a reason. :)
BACK AT YOU
"Here's some theories of my own that could apply to yours.
*I think we need to apply Mrs. Hawking's law more.
The universe needed those particular people to end up on that island, in order to course-correct itself, which is to get rid of the power-hungry Ben somehow. What better than to have them all in one place (the plane) and push them back in time to 1984, during Desmond's accidental episode.Then the universe sends a parachute of food, sent in 1984, and being received when the survivors needed it. Faraday's rocket exp. is the universe telling Faraday not to expect things to arrive on the island when he thinks they should. Then the universe brings back the Doctor's body, to accelerate the survivors' actions. And then it allowed W's chumps to get on the island for the same reason.I think the universe is also responsible for people's sightings of ghosts. A necessity to get people off their asses. John and Hurley seem to need it the most lol.When they get off the island, they are re-sent to the future, to whenever their minds would think the world is continuing. In other words, their minds are on the off-island stopwatch--I think that's what you were trying to say early in this post.(PS:I also think that anything electronic/radioactive is also on the off-island stopwatch, hence Danielle's continued distress call, the looking glass's operation, and the Jack+Penelope's radio contact.)(PPS:Why would Ben tell his people that the Looking Glass wasn't operational?)"
The main gist I kept picking up was your term universe and identifying it as the controller of all things - getting people on the plane and stopping Ben, getting Keamy's men to stop Ben, etc. In essence we are saying an Intelligent Design was involved. It will be interesting to see if our "mythology" ends up being explain as 1's and 0's on a chalkboard or in a Matrix-like computer. We obviously have to wait to see who or what is in control of all things.
When you expand this to include ALL events it is a brain stroke waiting to happen. I mean "Fate" caused the bus to hit Juliet's husband? "Fate" made Sun turn around for impending flight? I can get the idea of Fate recruiting converts to assist pushing people in the direction "Fate" wanted them to go, but really? Some invisible hand? I sense instead the basic premise will come down Fate versus Science and mathematics will explain that the sun is a celestial body instead of guy in a flaming chariot. At least I'm cheering for that side! LOL!
You and I are on the same page in regard to the stopwatch examples you gave.
BRAINSTORMING
"Here's another idea... the icy wheel room was another TM, but built in ancient times, probably when that giant statue w/4toes was built. When Ben pushed the wheel, he brought the island back to the time when that TM was built, hence, causing the island to disappear.Get where I'm going? It didn't move locations, it went back in time. And it will never eventually make it past 1984, which is why it is unseen to everyone in the present.I think you're off with the overlapping time killing Alex theory. If anything, it was a course correction required for some end or other. I think it's a swing and a miss for Rule 7."
I'm right with you on the island not being visible due to time. Basically, you are right on the mark that the island didn't move locations it moved in time. We are in agreement with the premise that you can't go back prior to when a TM was built. Your suggestion that the Time Machine was built centuries early allows for a larger window of time jumping. If true, then it does disqualify the time overlapping for Alex. Plus the younger boy and girl are still alive and they definitely would have their time overlapped by now...well, now that I think about, since the Swan Hatch imploded we haven't ever seen the children, now have we? I believe they have been asked about a time or two, but they were never shown, were they? Hmmm...
Leaving Alex explained as course correction is fine with me. Don't you think Ben's line about changing the rules has a bit more meaning though? And, Something had to control the rules and change them.
THE VIDEO
"BTW, what Comic Con video are you talking about? I've never seen one with Daniel in it."
Oh, you are going to enjoy this one. Here is a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo6Q7gzUjI8
It clearly is Daniel's voice. Well, as clear as its going to get. HA!
Some suggestion the baby Candle asks to be removed from the room could be Miles...like father, like son. Others imagine they see Charlotte in the video. But it strongly suggests that Daniel travels back in time - is somewhat of a controlled fashion and leave it to him to be the one to pull that off. He warns Marvin and seems as if he has to leave soon or at least some wormhole can't stay open longer. It could be Daniel back when he was really like 21 math whiz and not the beared version of 2004/1984/whatever time. Wow, this gets complicated.
Anyway, enjoy the video.
CLOSING THOUGHTS
"One last thought...Jack, Hurley and the others saw the island disappear, they were still on the island clock. I think they were close enough to be on the clock, but not close enough to be taken back with it.Well, those are my thoughts, I hope you made it through all of them. I'd like some feedback too.If there's something more to your theory that you'd like to discuss, just reply to this comment or put it in your next post.
'Til next time,Ben aka "B""
Well, B, you brought up a lot of interesting points. I hope I gave you something to chew on in my responses. Might post a few extra blogs as other ideas come to my mind.
**
If you enjoy this post, please click on an ad in the upper-right hand corner on your way out. This also helps be steer content in the direction of those kinds of posts you like. Thanks so much and keep reading!
Enjoy,
KC
Wednesday, October 15, 2008
LT136: I Want Some Answers
I believe this is the fourth post in a row concerning the Stopwatch Theory that is sort of being worked out as I write these posts. I guess that isn’t very convincing that we are going to end up with anything solid, but hope you have enjoyed the thought process unfold. If you missed the beginning of this, it might be worthwhile to go back and re-read the past few posts. Today’s post winds down the theory string by showing some examples of how the Stopwatch Theory explains things.
IN SUMMARY
The short summary is that the Stopwatch Theory is really searching for a set of rules that I imagine the writers of LOST have written on some whiteboard in their offices. So far we surmise that the rules include…
RULE 1: You can’t change the past, present or future fundamentally
For example, Locke was truly unable to kill his father, Anthony Cooper, when his daddy showed up by surprise. This is because of Rule 1, which handles the chicken-or-the-egg paradox. You can’t very well kill someone who is going to be your father eventually, because then you wouldn’t be here to pull the trigger.
Even if the rule did allow something this drastic, what would we expect to happen? My guess is the second Locke slides the knife across daddy’s neck, John would cease to exist, vanish, and disappear in a poof of logic.
So how was Sawyer able to kill a man that is actually alive in 1984? I believe because the rule requires a direct impact and there was none. Since Sawyer was killing his parent’s con man, the actions don’t change anyone’s life course fundamentally. Sawyer’s mother would still be conned by someone else. Sawyer’s father would still commit a murder-suicide. Sawyer would still shoot a man the thought was the real Sawyer.
Mrs. Hawkings tell us another rule which we must apply:
RULE 2: Fate can make course corrections.
Perhaps the idea was to give the writers some leeway. I think if you look for true paradoxes (like Sawyer killing his father before his father became his father) you won’t find many. The producers of LOST have promised as much.
But Mrs. Hawkings’ rule allows for minor course corrections.
RULE 3: The Island Box (or Bubble) is preserved in 1984.
One piece of evidence to this is the Noah’s Ark Effect. Since the Swan Orientation tape we have been aware of the six areas of scientific study the DeGroots would be conducting. One area of study mentioned was zoology.
Add in the talk on the show about the world coming to an end all the time and you get an island that is going to act like a life raft for mankind…and animal-kind. The polar bears and bunnies are there to conduct zoology tests. The tests probably have to do with the impact and consequences of the time paradoxes. We have a sort of Noah’s Ark.
This fits nicely with the religious themes that have emerged as well.
RULE 4: You can never travel further back than when the time machines were created.
The two time machines, the Left and the Right, might best be considered as portals. The Left is frozen in time in the year 1984 in honor of the famous book. This time machine encompasses the island.
The Right time machine or portal is located somewhere in real time. When the Survivors of Flight 815 crashed, it was September 22, 2004. Time keeps moving as we are use to observing it behave every day. When 30 days passed on the island, 30 days passed off the island.
However, the Left Time Machine – which is the island – keeps getting reset to some date in 1984. It ages normally with the outside world for about 105-107 minutes, then some guy in a hatch resets the space-time continuum to the beginning point. This gives time travel a reference point.
It also gives time travelers a maximum date that one can travel back to. This is due to the reason that if you travelled to 1970, neither time machine existed yet, so you can’t complete the cycle. That’s a fundamental change directly affecting the time traveler, so jumping prior to 1984 is a no-no.
RULE 5: The Swan hatch hasn’t reset the Left Stopwatch for about a month.
For the sake of explanation, let’s assume September 22 in 1984 is the day the time machines came on line. Exactly 20 years later Oceanic airline sends a plane through the Island event horizon and we get copies/twins/parallel/clones of everything on board that plane.
For the next two months or so, the Survivors observe approximately 60 sunrises and sunsets. They think the calendar would read November 27, 2004. But it doesn’t. The execute button in the Swan Hatch has been resetting the calendar to September 22, 1984.
Desmond believes the same thing which is why he asks Locke what day their plane crashed. The computers in the hatch have been “keeping time” for Desmond – just like everyone’s watch because that is how time is perceived by humans. But the calendar is not advancing. It is like Groundhog Day except none of the events repeat – yeah, think about that one for a minute.
Once the Swan hatch imploded it was November 27, 2004, off the island and in the real world. From that point on the island calendar and the real-world calendar advanced in unison.
So the calendar on the island would now read somewhere in late October 1984 because the Swan hatch has been idle for about a month.
THE RULES HAVE CHANGED
I’m not sure of Ben doesn’t recognize this even though he saw the sky’s appearance when the Swan hatch imploded. Or maybe Ben didn’t know the exact impact this would have.
The phrase Ben used about changing the rules has stuck in my crawl. I think the Stopwatch Theory might address this. The Left Stopwatch is no longer being reset by the holder of it. This means that the island’s time is catching up with real-world time. Ok, it isn’t “catching up” because it can’t go faster than fast (think NFL combine)…but it can at least stay even with it. For decades the island remained a fixed point in time. Now it is advancing and real-world rate.
This means the island’s timeline is beginning to overlap with real-world events. I believe the result of this will be disastrous. Paradoxes are forming and they need to be rectified by Fate. This is what John alludes to as “terrible things have happened since the Oceanic 6 left (or the island moved, you pick).”
Ben has already witnessed one such “course correction” which is now required as the island overlaps time that has already existed: Alex dying.
What would strengthen this line of thought is if the show begins telling us more events that happened back when the time machines were built…and soon after they were put in operation. The Comic Con video does exactly that. The tape sounds like Daniel is back in time convincing a confused but believing Marvin Candle that he is from the future.
LOOP, DUDE, LOOP
You may recall Hurley’s plea to Jack to be kept in the loop – the inner circle of leadership that has formed in this tiny society.
And we have talked plenty about time loops.
And past LOST TIDBITS have explored how especially Jack has been in a loop.
And now Daniel actually having travelled back in time (pre-time machine is yet to be discovered) suggests ability to re-live or loop back in time.
Even the show’s original title was “The Circle”.
RULE 6: There is only one time loop for Survivors.
I propose this rule is included on the Writer’s Whiteboard. This is because we have one set of twins that passed through a time warp, not triplets.
This gets a bit confusing, but consider this: if Daniel did travel back to warn Marvin Candle of his impending doom, he can’t go back a few days later and try a better warning. Or because of other rules already offered, it wouldn’t do any good since fundamental changes are required.
And we have stated that the Left Stopwatch is being reset, so we have thousands of time loops of 108 minute durations. And let’s not forget that Sayid was able to calculate a passage of 16 years from the crazy French lady’s transmission.
But the Survivors are limited to two timelines, no more and no less.
RULE 7: You can outlive yourself, but you probably can’t pre-date yourself.
The only people at risk here would be the young ones like Claire…or anyone else around the age of 20 (2004 – 1984 = 20 years). So Daniel CAN go back to 1984 since he really was alive then. But he can’t travel back to a point prior to his birth.
In the real-world we know (?) the Survivors died in the crash.
CONTRADICTION ALERT: Frank, the pilot, says he recognized the pilot as a fraud since the real pilot always wore a ring. Not sure what to do with this other than to agree this plane was staged, but stick with me.
If they truly died, and Frank was merely mistaken which we could be told later is the case, then we know everyone’s real-world outcome: dead. So we know your “second copy” can live on…in the Left side of the world, the island. This is why returning was such a big deal.
See, there is no real fundamental impact with having dead people still being alive since dead people don’t impact the future very well or much! But Father Time and Mother Fate are still up in arms about having to deal with it. Without a direct conflict they are able to re-enter the real world (which is about 60 days into the future to the Oceanic 6 but they just don’t realize it).
This is why Michael’s mother states, “You disappear for a couple of months…we don’t hear anything from you…and then you show up at my door.” Oh, dear mother, he didn’t show up because he was dead at the bottom of the ocean.
This stuff should remind you of the Sixth Sense. It really looks like they are interacting until we find out they weren’t. Brilliant!
BEN AND THE TIME JUMP
Real world calendar: December 30, 2004.
Island calendar: October 30, 1984.
When Ben walked up to the hotel counter to check in he had to ask the date because since the Swan hatch stopped resetting the Left Stopwatch, island passage had begun to move forward. This throws off the calculation in much the same way passing through the Island Snow Globe affects time oddly. History is being re-written for a second time and this isn’t good. I believe Ben could control exactly where he time travelled before the Swan went boom.
I’ve been trying to formulate a Rule for this, but so far find too many contradictions.
CALENDAR ADVANCES BUT AT DIFFERENT RATES?
My final thought to share is that the time rate is different for the island considering its odd properties.
To address this we should remember two past events: the rocket and the doc.
The rocket fired outside the bubble and took longer – as perceived by the island – than expected.
The doc with a throat disorder floated on shore before the copy of him on the boat showed up.
This stuff reinforces the Stopwatch Theory which says a copy or clone is made when being in the present you cross a boundary into the past. The 305 degrees seems to mitigate the impact, but any other entry and time goes wacky.
The challenge is that it rushes ahead for the doc showing up early and the rocket showing up late. I think the helicopter ride Des and Sayid made with Frank reinforces this as well. Recall that much of the explanation to events from the show has involved radiation. Now think back to any earlier post of a science project that involved radioactive poison, a cat and a sealed lead box.
So does time rush forward or backwards? Not sure yet. Both, it seems for now.
One piece of this we should focus on is that either explanation confirms that time moves strange. This concept easily fits with time running at twice the speed on the island in an attempt to catch-up with time.
So…the real-word moved 30 days from Swan implosion to Ben turning the wheel. Yet, Ben jumped ten months further than that. This is a factor of roughly 10 times the “make-up rate”.
CONCLUSION
I hoped you enjoyed the Stopwatch Theory. If you have any ideas to supplement or refute points, please post a comment. And you know if you keep reading LOST TIDBITS you’ll not miss out on any follow-ups to the Rules. After all, we have four more months to spend together before LOST returns.
**
If you enjoy this post, please click on an ad in the upper-right hand corner on your way out. This also helps be steer content in the direction of those kinds of posts you like. Thanks so much and keep reading!
Enjoy,
KC
IN SUMMARY
The short summary is that the Stopwatch Theory is really searching for a set of rules that I imagine the writers of LOST have written on some whiteboard in their offices. So far we surmise that the rules include…
RULE 1: You can’t change the past, present or future fundamentally
For example, Locke was truly unable to kill his father, Anthony Cooper, when his daddy showed up by surprise. This is because of Rule 1, which handles the chicken-or-the-egg paradox. You can’t very well kill someone who is going to be your father eventually, because then you wouldn’t be here to pull the trigger.
Even if the rule did allow something this drastic, what would we expect to happen? My guess is the second Locke slides the knife across daddy’s neck, John would cease to exist, vanish, and disappear in a poof of logic.
So how was Sawyer able to kill a man that is actually alive in 1984? I believe because the rule requires a direct impact and there was none. Since Sawyer was killing his parent’s con man, the actions don’t change anyone’s life course fundamentally. Sawyer’s mother would still be conned by someone else. Sawyer’s father would still commit a murder-suicide. Sawyer would still shoot a man the thought was the real Sawyer.
Mrs. Hawkings tell us another rule which we must apply:
RULE 2: Fate can make course corrections.
Perhaps the idea was to give the writers some leeway. I think if you look for true paradoxes (like Sawyer killing his father before his father became his father) you won’t find many. The producers of LOST have promised as much.
But Mrs. Hawkings’ rule allows for minor course corrections.
RULE 3: The Island Box (or Bubble) is preserved in 1984.
One piece of evidence to this is the Noah’s Ark Effect. Since the Swan Orientation tape we have been aware of the six areas of scientific study the DeGroots would be conducting. One area of study mentioned was zoology.
Add in the talk on the show about the world coming to an end all the time and you get an island that is going to act like a life raft for mankind…and animal-kind. The polar bears and bunnies are there to conduct zoology tests. The tests probably have to do with the impact and consequences of the time paradoxes. We have a sort of Noah’s Ark.
This fits nicely with the religious themes that have emerged as well.
RULE 4: You can never travel further back than when the time machines were created.
The two time machines, the Left and the Right, might best be considered as portals. The Left is frozen in time in the year 1984 in honor of the famous book. This time machine encompasses the island.
The Right time machine or portal is located somewhere in real time. When the Survivors of Flight 815 crashed, it was September 22, 2004. Time keeps moving as we are use to observing it behave every day. When 30 days passed on the island, 30 days passed off the island.
However, the Left Time Machine – which is the island – keeps getting reset to some date in 1984. It ages normally with the outside world for about 105-107 minutes, then some guy in a hatch resets the space-time continuum to the beginning point. This gives time travel a reference point.
It also gives time travelers a maximum date that one can travel back to. This is due to the reason that if you travelled to 1970, neither time machine existed yet, so you can’t complete the cycle. That’s a fundamental change directly affecting the time traveler, so jumping prior to 1984 is a no-no.
RULE 5: The Swan hatch hasn’t reset the Left Stopwatch for about a month.
For the sake of explanation, let’s assume September 22 in 1984 is the day the time machines came on line. Exactly 20 years later Oceanic airline sends a plane through the Island event horizon and we get copies/twins/parallel/clones of everything on board that plane.
For the next two months or so, the Survivors observe approximately 60 sunrises and sunsets. They think the calendar would read November 27, 2004. But it doesn’t. The execute button in the Swan Hatch has been resetting the calendar to September 22, 1984.
Desmond believes the same thing which is why he asks Locke what day their plane crashed. The computers in the hatch have been “keeping time” for Desmond – just like everyone’s watch because that is how time is perceived by humans. But the calendar is not advancing. It is like Groundhog Day except none of the events repeat – yeah, think about that one for a minute.
Once the Swan hatch imploded it was November 27, 2004, off the island and in the real world. From that point on the island calendar and the real-world calendar advanced in unison.
So the calendar on the island would now read somewhere in late October 1984 because the Swan hatch has been idle for about a month.
THE RULES HAVE CHANGED
I’m not sure of Ben doesn’t recognize this even though he saw the sky’s appearance when the Swan hatch imploded. Or maybe Ben didn’t know the exact impact this would have.
The phrase Ben used about changing the rules has stuck in my crawl. I think the Stopwatch Theory might address this. The Left Stopwatch is no longer being reset by the holder of it. This means that the island’s time is catching up with real-world time. Ok, it isn’t “catching up” because it can’t go faster than fast (think NFL combine)…but it can at least stay even with it. For decades the island remained a fixed point in time. Now it is advancing and real-world rate.
This means the island’s timeline is beginning to overlap with real-world events. I believe the result of this will be disastrous. Paradoxes are forming and they need to be rectified by Fate. This is what John alludes to as “terrible things have happened since the Oceanic 6 left (or the island moved, you pick).”
Ben has already witnessed one such “course correction” which is now required as the island overlaps time that has already existed: Alex dying.
What would strengthen this line of thought is if the show begins telling us more events that happened back when the time machines were built…and soon after they were put in operation. The Comic Con video does exactly that. The tape sounds like Daniel is back in time convincing a confused but believing Marvin Candle that he is from the future.
LOOP, DUDE, LOOP
You may recall Hurley’s plea to Jack to be kept in the loop – the inner circle of leadership that has formed in this tiny society.
And we have talked plenty about time loops.
And past LOST TIDBITS have explored how especially Jack has been in a loop.
And now Daniel actually having travelled back in time (pre-time machine is yet to be discovered) suggests ability to re-live or loop back in time.
Even the show’s original title was “The Circle”.
RULE 6: There is only one time loop for Survivors.
I propose this rule is included on the Writer’s Whiteboard. This is because we have one set of twins that passed through a time warp, not triplets.
This gets a bit confusing, but consider this: if Daniel did travel back to warn Marvin Candle of his impending doom, he can’t go back a few days later and try a better warning. Or because of other rules already offered, it wouldn’t do any good since fundamental changes are required.
And we have stated that the Left Stopwatch is being reset, so we have thousands of time loops of 108 minute durations. And let’s not forget that Sayid was able to calculate a passage of 16 years from the crazy French lady’s transmission.
But the Survivors are limited to two timelines, no more and no less.
RULE 7: You can outlive yourself, but you probably can’t pre-date yourself.
The only people at risk here would be the young ones like Claire…or anyone else around the age of 20 (2004 – 1984 = 20 years). So Daniel CAN go back to 1984 since he really was alive then. But he can’t travel back to a point prior to his birth.
In the real-world we know (?) the Survivors died in the crash.
CONTRADICTION ALERT: Frank, the pilot, says he recognized the pilot as a fraud since the real pilot always wore a ring. Not sure what to do with this other than to agree this plane was staged, but stick with me.
If they truly died, and Frank was merely mistaken which we could be told later is the case, then we know everyone’s real-world outcome: dead. So we know your “second copy” can live on…in the Left side of the world, the island. This is why returning was such a big deal.
See, there is no real fundamental impact with having dead people still being alive since dead people don’t impact the future very well or much! But Father Time and Mother Fate are still up in arms about having to deal with it. Without a direct conflict they are able to re-enter the real world (which is about 60 days into the future to the Oceanic 6 but they just don’t realize it).
This is why Michael’s mother states, “You disappear for a couple of months…we don’t hear anything from you…and then you show up at my door.” Oh, dear mother, he didn’t show up because he was dead at the bottom of the ocean.
This stuff should remind you of the Sixth Sense. It really looks like they are interacting until we find out they weren’t. Brilliant!
BEN AND THE TIME JUMP
Real world calendar: December 30, 2004.
Island calendar: October 30, 1984.
When Ben walked up to the hotel counter to check in he had to ask the date because since the Swan hatch stopped resetting the Left Stopwatch, island passage had begun to move forward. This throws off the calculation in much the same way passing through the Island Snow Globe affects time oddly. History is being re-written for a second time and this isn’t good. I believe Ben could control exactly where he time travelled before the Swan went boom.
I’ve been trying to formulate a Rule for this, but so far find too many contradictions.
CALENDAR ADVANCES BUT AT DIFFERENT RATES?
My final thought to share is that the time rate is different for the island considering its odd properties.
To address this we should remember two past events: the rocket and the doc.
The rocket fired outside the bubble and took longer – as perceived by the island – than expected.
The doc with a throat disorder floated on shore before the copy of him on the boat showed up.
This stuff reinforces the Stopwatch Theory which says a copy or clone is made when being in the present you cross a boundary into the past. The 305 degrees seems to mitigate the impact, but any other entry and time goes wacky.
The challenge is that it rushes ahead for the doc showing up early and the rocket showing up late. I think the helicopter ride Des and Sayid made with Frank reinforces this as well. Recall that much of the explanation to events from the show has involved radiation. Now think back to any earlier post of a science project that involved radioactive poison, a cat and a sealed lead box.
So does time rush forward or backwards? Not sure yet. Both, it seems for now.
One piece of this we should focus on is that either explanation confirms that time moves strange. This concept easily fits with time running at twice the speed on the island in an attempt to catch-up with time.
So…the real-word moved 30 days from Swan implosion to Ben turning the wheel. Yet, Ben jumped ten months further than that. This is a factor of roughly 10 times the “make-up rate”.
CONCLUSION
I hoped you enjoyed the Stopwatch Theory. If you have any ideas to supplement or refute points, please post a comment. And you know if you keep reading LOST TIDBITS you’ll not miss out on any follow-ups to the Rules. After all, we have four more months to spend together before LOST returns.
**
If you enjoy this post, please click on an ad in the upper-right hand corner on your way out. This also helps be steer content in the direction of those kinds of posts you like. Thanks so much and keep reading!
Enjoy,
KC
Sunday, October 12, 2008
LT135: Time Waits For No One
This blog has been exploring the Stopwatch Theory, so it might benefit you to go back and read the last couple of posts to get caught up.
THEY DON’T KNOW TIME HAS STOOD STILL
The Survivors crashed on September 22, 2004, to a place that the date was 1984. When the plane crash scenes are carefully scrutinized by obsessed fans, many have notice a problem with the time of day and specifically, the sun. Based on departure time from Sydney, flight time in based on the pilot’s description, course correction, and so on…it should have been nearly night time, but it appears to be almost high noon.
Two possibilities exist…the producers at the time of the filming of the first episode may not have taken the care to line up the position of the sun into his filming schedule. The producers and writers likely didn’t know at the time how ravenous their fans would become. This is likely the best explanation. However, it doesn’t refute the Stopwatch Theory in that it might strengthen its argument.
If they jumped dates, why not time of day as well? They left the real world at 8 pm on the 22nd of 2004 and entered any day at noon in 1984.
POSSIBLE CONFLICT
Time does pass on the island. If the time is being reset to noon on a day in 1984, then why aren’t they reliving the same day over and over again? To be precise, why aren’t they reliving the same 108 minutes over and over? Shouldn’t it always be between noon and 1:40 p.m.?
In order to resolve this conflict we have to remind ourselves that some scouts have stopwatches that read 4.3 and others show 4.4 on the stopwatch…for the same event being measured.
We also can consider the theories behind the space-time continuum which basically says whatever can happen can. So, that provides a lot of liberty for the writers. But it throws a wrench into why Richard doesn’t age. If Locke’s beard and Sawyer’s hair grows then time is moving forward, but time isn’t moving. Yeah, hurts my head too!
SURVIVAL FILES
I’ve always been curious on how they have nice thick files on the Survivors. We know when the plane went down they only then began to get a list compiled. The first time we see Jack have his file revealed was about two months top. How did a remote island with restricted communication get that much background information in 60 days? It appeared that had detailed information. That would take time.
And time is what they have for the island remains in 1984 as the Left Stopwatch keeps getting reset. The outside world, the Right Stopwatch just keeps on ticking. So the Others can jump into Left Time Machine in 1984 and zap to present day through the Right Time Machine. The Others could take ten years to research the passengers if they felt like it. Take 20 years, because when they are ready, they can zap back to the island in 1984 and act like they snapped their fingers and the files magically appeared.
OTHER BLINKS OF THE EYE
This is how Cooper got to the island. When the passengers of Flight 815 dropped out of “real time” it was September 2004. They now THINK three months have past and in the “real world” it has. Time has kept moving forward. So, Ben jumps into the Left Time Machine and re-enters the real world in December 2004. Grabs Anthony Cooper and says, “You are coming with me.”
I propose this is how all people get to and from the island – with the Left Time Machine. It makes it easy to get another historical, like a World Series result and bring it back to the same frozen snow globe.
Another blink of the eye is that Locke can walk. Of course he could walk…in 1984.
Here’s another one: in a blink of an eye the Oceanic plane went down and everyone on board died just as seen on the news footage. That’s exactly what happened. As the plane goes down we have a twin plane enters a magnetic field that returns it to 1984.
ANOTHER CONFLICT
Some people died on the “island plane”. Sure, time still marches on for anyone inside the island’s box. The calendar just doesn’t move. The Left Stopwatch keeps getting reset although passes.
This just means some passengers were going to die from impact. Nothing more and nothing less. Joanna can still drown. Boone can still bleed out. The Marshall can die twice.
But wouldn’t this still mean that the passengers who died on the island in 1984 also died on September 22, 2004? Yes. If these passengers had children in the real world, would they suddenly vanish because the parent had actually died in 1984? No, because the island doesn’t let you change the future. The producers have been clear on this point…what we have seen in flash forwards is what will still happen when that day is today…Jake isn’t going to change from what we have seen already.
And Desmond’s jewelry clerk, aka Mrs. Hawkings, aka Mrs. Time, confirms this. You can “course correct”, but you can’t go back in time and shoot your grandfather because that would mean you never happened. Again, the producers have promised to avoid those types of paradoxes.
But one more conflict comes up…why isn’t Richard aging if time is moving forward even though the calendar is not? Resetting the clock would seem to support eternal life, but contradicts everything we observe with life…aging is going on here. Sorry, can’t answer them all, but perhaps this contradiction when resolved will tell us. And do keep in mind that he is one of the rare examples of non-aging…I’d like two examples before we assume this is another rule written on the writer’s whiteboard.
RIGHT TIME MACHINE
Little has been said about the right time machine so far and for good reason. I have no clue to where it might be located. A good guess would focus on the cities mentioned in the show: Tallahassee, Florida; Ames, Iowa; London, England, etc. Portland, Oregon, is a real solid bet.
Perhaps the summer game, The Project, might help answer some of this background stuff on where the home office of Dharma Initiative resides.
TIME MOVES, CALENDAR FROZEN
We know time moves forward as the observer views things because Claire finally went to term and delivered a baby. I fully expected to see Sun showing in a few weeks had she stuck around. Life is growing on this island.
So why all the dead babies and mothers who conceive on the island? The answer is the same as to why the passengers of the second Flight 815 didn’t really die in 1984. The “real” 1984 was 20 years ago for the guy in Seat 3B who is still sitting in his seat at the bottom of the Sundra Trench.
What you do on the island – whose calendar is 1984 – doesn’t change the real world facts happening in the real world. And because of this the laws of science can’t allow a new life to be born on the island in this mirror year of 1984. Sun is indeed dead if she would remain on the island. Sorry, but you weren’t pregnant in 1984, so you can’t be pregnant in 1984.
Again, this is why John can walk because he could in 1984 – it works both ways. Rose is feeling much better not because the magic island is healing her, it is because she didn’t have cancer in 1984.
I can’t layout all the specific rules but hopefully you see the possibilities.
THE CHILDREN
If we stay consistent with what we have laid out, then how the heck is Walt even on the island? He wasn’t even born yet in 1984.
Assuming the time machines were made operational in 1984, anyone under the age of 20 should not exist on the island for those who were on the Oceanic plane.
One explanation is that a “carbon copy” of plane and passengers were made, so that overrules any direct tie to 1984. The survivors simply wake up obvious to the real date on Mystery Island. Walt was on board, so Walt is on the island.
It is interesting to note however, that the Others pay so much attention to the children. All have been kidnapped. Notice the degree of concern isn’t so high that one, Walt, might be allowed to leave. I’ll have to give this some more thought…and ideas?
The Others called Walt special and we have supporting evidence of that. Perhaps the boy and girl with the teddy bear might end up also showing special abilities due to the fact they weren’t around in 1984. Was Karl under the age of 20, I believe so. One gets the feeling the Others believe they are protecting them as if they deaths would have a bad ripple effect. I once thought their interest was test subjects, but I’m liking the role of protector better now. It starts to explain why Ben really is one of the good guys.
NEXT LOST TIDBITS
I plan to wrap-up the Stopwatch Theory with plenty of examples of how this theory can help explain the rules of LOST. Some of the topics will include:
Why Locke couldn’t kill his father any more than you can kill someone who hasn’t had you yet?
Why polar bears make sense being found on the island?
Explorer how time moves when entering the box other than with a Time Machine.
What impact did the Swan imploding have on island time?
Why Ben had to ask the date in Tunisia?
**
If you enjoy this post, please click on an ad in the upper-right hand corner on your way out. This also helps be steer content in the direction of those kinds of posts you like. Thanks so much and keep reading!
Enjoy,
KC
THEY DON’T KNOW TIME HAS STOOD STILL
The Survivors crashed on September 22, 2004, to a place that the date was 1984. When the plane crash scenes are carefully scrutinized by obsessed fans, many have notice a problem with the time of day and specifically, the sun. Based on departure time from Sydney, flight time in based on the pilot’s description, course correction, and so on…it should have been nearly night time, but it appears to be almost high noon.
Two possibilities exist…the producers at the time of the filming of the first episode may not have taken the care to line up the position of the sun into his filming schedule. The producers and writers likely didn’t know at the time how ravenous their fans would become. This is likely the best explanation. However, it doesn’t refute the Stopwatch Theory in that it might strengthen its argument.
If they jumped dates, why not time of day as well? They left the real world at 8 pm on the 22nd of 2004 and entered any day at noon in 1984.
POSSIBLE CONFLICT
Time does pass on the island. If the time is being reset to noon on a day in 1984, then why aren’t they reliving the same day over and over again? To be precise, why aren’t they reliving the same 108 minutes over and over? Shouldn’t it always be between noon and 1:40 p.m.?
In order to resolve this conflict we have to remind ourselves that some scouts have stopwatches that read 4.3 and others show 4.4 on the stopwatch…for the same event being measured.
We also can consider the theories behind the space-time continuum which basically says whatever can happen can. So, that provides a lot of liberty for the writers. But it throws a wrench into why Richard doesn’t age. If Locke’s beard and Sawyer’s hair grows then time is moving forward, but time isn’t moving. Yeah, hurts my head too!
SURVIVAL FILES
I’ve always been curious on how they have nice thick files on the Survivors. We know when the plane went down they only then began to get a list compiled. The first time we see Jack have his file revealed was about two months top. How did a remote island with restricted communication get that much background information in 60 days? It appeared that had detailed information. That would take time.
And time is what they have for the island remains in 1984 as the Left Stopwatch keeps getting reset. The outside world, the Right Stopwatch just keeps on ticking. So the Others can jump into Left Time Machine in 1984 and zap to present day through the Right Time Machine. The Others could take ten years to research the passengers if they felt like it. Take 20 years, because when they are ready, they can zap back to the island in 1984 and act like they snapped their fingers and the files magically appeared.
OTHER BLINKS OF THE EYE
This is how Cooper got to the island. When the passengers of Flight 815 dropped out of “real time” it was September 2004. They now THINK three months have past and in the “real world” it has. Time has kept moving forward. So, Ben jumps into the Left Time Machine and re-enters the real world in December 2004. Grabs Anthony Cooper and says, “You are coming with me.”
I propose this is how all people get to and from the island – with the Left Time Machine. It makes it easy to get another historical, like a World Series result and bring it back to the same frozen snow globe.
Another blink of the eye is that Locke can walk. Of course he could walk…in 1984.
Here’s another one: in a blink of an eye the Oceanic plane went down and everyone on board died just as seen on the news footage. That’s exactly what happened. As the plane goes down we have a twin plane enters a magnetic field that returns it to 1984.
ANOTHER CONFLICT
Some people died on the “island plane”. Sure, time still marches on for anyone inside the island’s box. The calendar just doesn’t move. The Left Stopwatch keeps getting reset although passes.
This just means some passengers were going to die from impact. Nothing more and nothing less. Joanna can still drown. Boone can still bleed out. The Marshall can die twice.
But wouldn’t this still mean that the passengers who died on the island in 1984 also died on September 22, 2004? Yes. If these passengers had children in the real world, would they suddenly vanish because the parent had actually died in 1984? No, because the island doesn’t let you change the future. The producers have been clear on this point…what we have seen in flash forwards is what will still happen when that day is today…Jake isn’t going to change from what we have seen already.
And Desmond’s jewelry clerk, aka Mrs. Hawkings, aka Mrs. Time, confirms this. You can “course correct”, but you can’t go back in time and shoot your grandfather because that would mean you never happened. Again, the producers have promised to avoid those types of paradoxes.
But one more conflict comes up…why isn’t Richard aging if time is moving forward even though the calendar is not? Resetting the clock would seem to support eternal life, but contradicts everything we observe with life…aging is going on here. Sorry, can’t answer them all, but perhaps this contradiction when resolved will tell us. And do keep in mind that he is one of the rare examples of non-aging…I’d like two examples before we assume this is another rule written on the writer’s whiteboard.
RIGHT TIME MACHINE
Little has been said about the right time machine so far and for good reason. I have no clue to where it might be located. A good guess would focus on the cities mentioned in the show: Tallahassee, Florida; Ames, Iowa; London, England, etc. Portland, Oregon, is a real solid bet.
Perhaps the summer game, The Project, might help answer some of this background stuff on where the home office of Dharma Initiative resides.
TIME MOVES, CALENDAR FROZEN
We know time moves forward as the observer views things because Claire finally went to term and delivered a baby. I fully expected to see Sun showing in a few weeks had she stuck around. Life is growing on this island.
So why all the dead babies and mothers who conceive on the island? The answer is the same as to why the passengers of the second Flight 815 didn’t really die in 1984. The “real” 1984 was 20 years ago for the guy in Seat 3B who is still sitting in his seat at the bottom of the Sundra Trench.
What you do on the island – whose calendar is 1984 – doesn’t change the real world facts happening in the real world. And because of this the laws of science can’t allow a new life to be born on the island in this mirror year of 1984. Sun is indeed dead if she would remain on the island. Sorry, but you weren’t pregnant in 1984, so you can’t be pregnant in 1984.
Again, this is why John can walk because he could in 1984 – it works both ways. Rose is feeling much better not because the magic island is healing her, it is because she didn’t have cancer in 1984.
I can’t layout all the specific rules but hopefully you see the possibilities.
THE CHILDREN
If we stay consistent with what we have laid out, then how the heck is Walt even on the island? He wasn’t even born yet in 1984.
Assuming the time machines were made operational in 1984, anyone under the age of 20 should not exist on the island for those who were on the Oceanic plane.
One explanation is that a “carbon copy” of plane and passengers were made, so that overrules any direct tie to 1984. The survivors simply wake up obvious to the real date on Mystery Island. Walt was on board, so Walt is on the island.
It is interesting to note however, that the Others pay so much attention to the children. All have been kidnapped. Notice the degree of concern isn’t so high that one, Walt, might be allowed to leave. I’ll have to give this some more thought…and ideas?
The Others called Walt special and we have supporting evidence of that. Perhaps the boy and girl with the teddy bear might end up also showing special abilities due to the fact they weren’t around in 1984. Was Karl under the age of 20, I believe so. One gets the feeling the Others believe they are protecting them as if they deaths would have a bad ripple effect. I once thought their interest was test subjects, but I’m liking the role of protector better now. It starts to explain why Ben really is one of the good guys.
NEXT LOST TIDBITS
I plan to wrap-up the Stopwatch Theory with plenty of examples of how this theory can help explain the rules of LOST. Some of the topics will include:
Why Locke couldn’t kill his father any more than you can kill someone who hasn’t had you yet?
Why polar bears make sense being found on the island?
Explorer how time moves when entering the box other than with a Time Machine.
What impact did the Swan imploding have on island time?
Why Ben had to ask the date in Tunisia?
**
If you enjoy this post, please click on an ad in the upper-right hand corner on your way out. This also helps be steer content in the direction of those kinds of posts you like. Thanks so much and keep reading!
Enjoy,
KC
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